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Why Shouldn't USA Nationalize Chip-Making?

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  • Why Shouldn't USA Nationalize Chip-Making?

    “I've talked to maybe four CEOs of chip companies here, they've all said, ‘We want to be in the U.S., but we can't wait any longer,’” she says, noting that companies are weighing inducements from countries like Singapore, Germany, Spain and others to build plants there.
    https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/d...210302098.html


    Basically, the chip-making industry is blackmailing the US: "Give us $50 billion or we're out of here."

    Meanwhile, China is investing $150 billion in the production of chips.

    Chips are an integral part of pretty much every piece of tech in the world. In other words, they are a major national security issue. We cannot allow companies to hold our security for ransom, fifty billion now, and how much later?

    Why not use that $50 billion and do what China does - Build our own national chip making company? Part of national defense. All the jobs stay here. The tech stays here. Instead of paying these unreliable private businesses billions, with no guarantees, do it ourselves. After all, we invented much of this shit.

  • #2
    It depends on if you want for our future a CCP type society where government controls everything or a traditional US society where private companies can thrive and have influence even if they butt heads with the federal government sometimes. Our system is less efficient but leads to a better life for our citizens.

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    • #3
      Almost all of the world’s advanced chips are manufactured by TSMC in Taiwan - including the majority of the chips the U.S. military relies on. The fabrication plants that produce the chips are extremely difficult to replicate as they are extremely expensive and highly specialized. The Taiwanese government has been carefully guarding the secrets of the workings of the fabs for decades.

      The U.S. government is spending $52B to build three advanced (5 nanometer) chip fabs in the U.S., but by the time those plants are ready to come online, TSMC in Taiwan will have already replaced their 5N process with the new 3N chip. They’ve already started R&D on a new 2N chip. Their investment is double what the U.S. is spending. It will be almost impossible for any other government or company to catch up with them anytime soon.

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      • #4
        Texas Instruments is investing 30 Bill into a plant in North Texas. IT will be producing chips in 3 years. Let me guess Rho, you are pissed about the probable tax benefits TI got from Texas and the thriving town of Sherman TX.

        https://www.fox4news.com/news/texas-...ochip-shortage

        I have no idea why you think the government is the answer to all that plagues us. You are like a child wondering around looking for an authority figure to run your life for you.

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        • #5
          Intel investing 3.5 Bill into New Mexico.

          https://www.kob.com/archive/intel-an...-rancho-plant/

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Drunk Monkey View Post
            Texas Instruments is investing 30 Bill into a plant in North Texas. IT will be producing chips in 3 years. Let me guess Rho, you are pissed about the probable tax benefits TI got from Texas and the thriving town of Sherman TX.

            https://www.fox4news.com/news/texas-...ochip-shortage

            I have no idea why you think the government is the answer to all that plagues us. You are like a child wondering around looking for an authority figure to run your life for you.
            You obviously skipped post number 2.

            Also, thanks for the reminder:

            ”Republicans campaign on the platform that government doesn’t work. Then they get elected and prove it.”

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Drunk Monkey View Post

              I have no idea why you think the government is the answer to all that plagues us.
              Yeah, Roh, what are you thinking?

              An oligarchy running on unlimited bribery is obviously a better idea. 😉

              You are like a child wondering around looking for an authority figure to run your life for you.
              Au contraire.

              You're simply a boot licker who's appointed billionaire kleptocrats as your authority figures in lieu of a functioning government.

              What's "childish" is believing that to allow corporatists to do whatever they please with little or no regulation or oversight is in society's best interest.

              You would jettison government for a socioeconomic system that resembles an NFL game with no rules and no refs.

              At any rate, we've tried it your way for ~40 years now, and the results speak for themselves, e.g., worst wealth inequality since the Roaring 20s and a government awash in a sea of red ink.



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              • #8
                Originally posted by Drunk Monkey View Post
                Intel investing 3.5 Bill into New Mexico.

                https://www.kob.com/archive/intel-an...-rancho-plant/
                LOL.

                The irony never ceases.

                You're here castigating others for looking to government to solve problems when the reason why the U.S. is in its current predicament with regard to the manufacture of advanced chips in the first place is because all the American corporations who once manufactured the chips domestically made the decision to outsource all of their production to Taiwan decades ago.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN View Post
                  Almost all of the world’s advanced chips are manufactured by TSMC in Taiwan - including the majority of the chips the U.S. military relies on. The fabrication plants that produce the chips are extremely difficult to replicate as they are extremely expensive and highly specialized. The Taiwanese government has been carefully guarding the secrets of the workings of the fabs for decades.

                  The U.S. government is spending $52B to build three advanced (5 nanometer) chip fabs in the U.S., but by the time those plants are ready to come online, TSMC in Taiwan will have already replaced their 5N process with the new 3N chip. They’ve already started R&D on a new 2N chip. Their investment is double what the U.S. is spending. It will be almost impossible for any other government or company to catch up with them anytime soon.
                  I guess that really locks us in to the idea of defending Taiwan?

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                  • #10
                    OP doesn’t understand the over regulation from the left. He also doesn’t understand other countries using labor that’s far cheaper.


                    you want your products to cost twice as much as now? Have them built in america where wages are demanded to be high for basic labor, as well as all the regulations fees and taxes that kill a business.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Drunk Monkey View Post
                      Texas Instruments is investing 30 Bill into a plant in North Texas. IT will be producing chips in 3 years. Let me guess Rho, you are pissed about the probable tax benefits TI got from Texas and the thriving town of Sherman TX.

                      https://www.fox4news.com/news/texas-...ochip-shortage

                      I have no idea why you think the government is the answer to all that plagues us. You are like a child wondering around looking for an authority figure to run your life for you.
                      What a stupid take. Didn't even read my question (and it was a question, not a statement). It's an issue of national security. Like steel. We won WWII because we could out-produce any other nation on Earth. Can we do that now? If we needed to build 10,000 tanks right now, could we even do it? How much of our steel producing capacity have we moved offshore?

                      Could a foreign power cripple us by cutting off our access to chips, or various other technology that we have offshored? As LABF pointed out, Taiwan controls the majority of chip output. Is that safe for us?

                      And, like the article stated, Intel may be investing a few billion here and somebody else a couple of billion there... China has invested (as far as we know) $150 billion. Technology is the most critical element of survival, on the global scale.

                      As LABF pointed out, today's global corporations have no allegiance whatsoever to the USA. They serve the interests of their shareholders, and they don't care where those shareholders live. This is a national security issue. We can't allow the whims of corporatists whose primary concern is profit, to control our security.
                      Last edited by Roh; 05-26-2022, 09:44 AM.

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                      • #12
                        I don't see why we wouldn't want to find some way to get the manufacturers of such things back in the United States.

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                        • #13
                          Hah. Government-made microchips.

                          That should end splendidly. I swear you kids. The Soviet/Russian model is a cautionary tale, not a road map. 😂

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Roh View Post

                            I guess that really locks us in to the idea of defending Taiwan?
                            That was a foregone conclusion.

                            We can't hope to counterbalance the new Nazi-style threat in China in a technological age without Taiwan.

                            If we can't stop China before they take Taiwan, we certainly wouldn't have much luck after. That's a WW3 red line that has to be drawn. For everyone to see.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
                              Hah. Government-made microchips.

                              That should end splendidly. I swear you kids. The Soviet/Russian model is a cautionary tale, not a road map. 😂
                              Um, who said anything about the government actually making the chips? 🙄

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                              • #16
                                Maybe we can just move Taiwan to the States??😅

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Requiem View Post
                                  I don't see why we wouldn't want to find some way to get the manufacturers of such things back in the United States.
                                  True, in theory. However, practically speaking, it's a massively expensive proposition.

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Roh View Post

                                    >As LABF pointed out, today's global corporations have no allegiance whatsoever to the USA. They serve the interests of their shareholders, and they don't care where those shareholders live. This is a national security issue. We can't allow the whims of corporatists whose primary concern is profit, to control our security.<
                                    Exactly.

                                    This really is the crux of most of our economic problems.

                                    To compound matters, those same corporations spend millions on propaganda to convince the rubes in the red hats that anyone who objects to anything they do is a "Marxist."

                                    And those same rubes see themselves as champions of capitalism when, in reality, they're mere serfs in a corporatist hierarchy.

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                                    • #19
                                      We have to figure out some (non-ideological) way to ensure the security of the US. After all, that's pretty much the first responsibility of the government as stated in the Constitution. Once again, ideological polarization steps to the front, screaming, and wipes out our capacity to think clearly.

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Roh View Post

                                        I guess that really locks us in to the idea of defending Taiwan?
                                        No doubt about it.

                                        Fortunately for us, if China were to decide to attack Taiwan, then they would be pursuing the most difficult military campaign in the history of warfare (which doesn't mean they won't try.)

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                                        • #21
                                          Originally posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN View Post

                                          No doubt about it.

                                          Fortunately for us, if China were to decide to attack Taiwan, then they would be pursuing the most difficult military campaign in the history of warfare (which doesn't mean they won't try.)
                                          All that ****ing around with all the islands in the South China Sea certainly looks like a warm up.

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                                          • #22
                                            Originally posted by Roh View Post
                                            We have to figure out some (non-ideological) way to ensure the security of the US. After all, that's pretty much the first responsibility of the government as stated in the Constitution. Once again, ideological polarization steps to the front, screaming, and wipes out our capacity to think clearly.
                                            Conservatives and quasi-libertarians used to agree at least on that much.

                                            Now they just seem to take their marching orders from whatever the "free market" demands.

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                                            • #23
                                              Originally posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN View Post

                                              Conservatives and quasi-libertarians used to agree at least on that much.

                                              Now they just seem to take their marching orders from whatever the "free market" demands.
                                              Like we watched when Putin invaded Ukraine; It took a couple of days for the Republicans to decide whose side they were on.

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                                              • #24
                                                Originally posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN View Post
                                                True, in theory. However, practically speaking, it's a massively expensive proposition.
                                                It's important for the United States to keep up with the future of the digital economy. Chips are important for healthcare and all types of industry and development. I'd have to brush up on some history, but it seemed like post-WWII that the United States (especially related to DOD initiatives) kind of paved the way of this sort of thing. From what I can tell, government investments and subsidies abroad (increase) and domestic decrease (along with some other financial hamstrings/regulations) made a lot of companies go elsewhere the past few decades.

                                                Certainly don't have all the solutions or answers, but I don't see how increased domestic production and incentives to keep businesses here to do that is a bad thing at all. The USA has spent trillions of dollars engaging in nation-building and warfare abroad my entire life. Why not invest in individuals and companies to be a leader in this technology instead? *shrug*



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                                                • #25
                                                  Global corporatism is a direct assault on nationalism. How do you balance the two?

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