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  • Pragmatism

    Seems to me that given the limitations of a representative republic, this should be a primary attribute of politicians...but especially those in leadership positions. It's not. I understand why it isn't. Voters don't tend to admire it.

    Often, a politician would campaign and talk a big game for their left or right ideals and govern pragmatically. Hell, if Bill Clinton's record as president were examined closely today, one might conclude he was a right wing populist. Even Hilary, one you examine her voting record as a senator, was more pragmatic than her rhetoric would suggest. I think GW Bush had a streak of pragmatism to him.

    In todays political climate, there simply is very little room for a thoughtful politician, open to various ideas and willing to explore those. Instead we have political theatre...often of the most absurd kind....and if you are of the right, and you deviate from the path or try and find some common ground, your own side brings the thunder, for being a traitor. and the other side, who you are trying to work with....will never bend to meet you somewhere in between. Same for the left.

    The system was designed by the founders with the idea that politicians...particularly the leadership...had to be pragmatic at least sometimes, in order to govern. In the absense of pragmatism, you get more and more entrenchment...and an acceptance that effective governance can only be achieved with a right wing authoritarian, or a left wing, powerful state.

    We really need ranked choice voting so that the disproportionate amount of power being held by the fringes at the ends of the left and right on the political spectrum, can be spread back out some, to those of us who don't want to wield the a sickle and hammer or who don't want to weld the church and state together.
    Last edited by Zerovoltz; 05-15-2022, 05:48 PM. Reason: spelling

  • #2
    Our government has become hopelessly corrupted by money, mostly corporate money. Citizens United, corporate "personhood" and "money is free speech" court rulings have made things hopelessly worse. The U.S. government is paid off by special interests too numerous to name. We are in the process of watching special interests (ie. The Federalist Society) fix Supreme Court rulings.

    IMHO, behind climate change, corruption is the most critical challenge we face as a country. Of course, we'll never respond to climate change unless we free the government from corruption first. Publicly funded campaigns are paramount.

    You won't get "pragmatic" representatives until you get them free of special interest influence.

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    • #3
      In today's political climate, being "pragmatic" would be like trying to discuss logic and philosophy with an orangutan. No matter how eloquent your argument is, the orangutan is just gonna throw feces at you and some of the observers would vote for the orangutan for no other reason than because it amused them to see you getting hit with crap.

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      • #4
        The US Congress is no longer responsive to widespread public opinion/ sentiment. They’re geared toward the most energized voter, and have GM districts to pick voters, rather than the opposite.

        minority representation is now the rule… that isn’t going to end well..

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        • #5
          The democrat party needs to be purged

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          • #6
            Ah, the disproportionate amount of power being held by the fringe left. Scary thought! 😂

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Agent Zero View Post
              The Republican party needs to be purged
              Fixed it for you.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Blueflame View Post

                Fixed it for you.
                Why not purge both parties

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Requiem View Post
                  Ah, the disproportionate amount of power being held by the fringe left. Scary thought! 😂
                  ....even if you don't think the actual people in "power" are the fringe of one side or another....the left for example...are stuck having to pander to/cater to the far left. An example that has stuck with me....during the D primaries, Elizabeth Warren was asked if she favored gender reassignment surgery for convicted felons in prison, funded by taxpayers.

                  This was an actual question. And she gave as an actual answer that she did. You won't find a majority of voters in any significant block of people you need to win over to win any election, that holds that opinion, let alone, think that is a legit question. But she was compelled to answer that way (I don't think she really believed her own answer and certainly never would have come remotely close to enacting any such thing) I'm not singling out the left..this crap happens all the time both sides.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Agent Zero View Post

                    Why not purge both parties
                    Because honestly it's not a realistic idea to purge either party. Just not gonna happen especially with the political divide as sharply defined as it is today.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Blueflame View Post

                      Because honestly it's not a realistic idea to purge either party. Just not gonna happen especially with the political divide as sharply defined as it is today.
                      If purging both parties meant america would be better off you’d be against it

                      because you care more about your party then anything else

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Zerovoltz View Post
                        ....even if you don't think the actual people in "power" are the fringe of one side or another.
                        It's not about thinking. It's about knowing. I've posted the breakdown of their entire caucus and links to the voting records. The "fringe left" has very little power in the Democratic Party. Most of their ideas are frequently rebuffed and dismissed by the party establishment and moderates.

                        A few other posters tried to float this idea a long time ago and promised me an actual rebuttal to the breakdowns I made. They never got back to me with an answer. It's pretty easy to know why. Give me a list of ten bills drafted by "fringe left" Democrats that became law the past five years.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Agent Zero View Post
                          If purging both parties meant america would be better off you’d be against it

                          because you care more about your party then anything else
                          ^^^^ More evidence that you know nothing about me.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Blueflame View Post

                            ^^^^ More evidence that you know nothing about me.
                            Don’t lie blueflame. It’s even in your name. BLUEflame

                            its obvious you’d die for the Democratic Party. Life is more than just political parties

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Agent Zero View Post

                              Don’t lie blueflame. It’s even in your name. BLUEflame

                              its obvious you’d die for the Democratic Party. Life is more than just political parties
                              Please remind me what the Denver Broncos' colors are.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Requiem View Post

                                It's not about thinking. It's about knowing. I've posted the breakdown of their entire caucus and links to the voting records. The "fringe left" has very little power in the Democratic Party. Most of their ideas are frequently rebuffed and dismissed by the party establishment and moderates.

                                A few other posters tried to float this idea a long time ago and promised me an actual rebuttal to the breakdowns I made. They never got back to me with an answer. It's pretty easy to know why. Give me a list of ten bills drafted by "fringe left" Democrats that became law the past five years.
                                I agree with you Req. I watched Nancy Pelosi at some Q and A thing and some lefy college kid confronted her about capitalism...and for as left and liberal as she's portrayed to be...she responsed to this doofus by telling him to his face that capitalism was the system that we have and will have and continue to work with. Not a leftist liberal answer at all.

                                I think the D's are hurt tremendously though, by things like I mention above....if nothing else, the (D) are HORRIBLE at marketing...and the (R) are much better at that. That isn't to say ones sides ideas are better than the others....those can be debated issue by issue.

                                ....and another reason this hurts in cases like that mentioned above....let's say you are a moderate (R) who is pragmatic...you'll get called out from the right for being willing to work with a woman who is pro gender surgery for fellons. Just the labeling alone is political ammunition for these people. ....and that happens both sides all the time.

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Zerovoltz View Post

                                  I agree with you Req. I watched Nancy Pelosi at some Q and A thing and some lefy college kid confronted her about capitalism...and for as left and liberal as she's portrayed to be...she responsed to this doofus by telling him to his face that capitalism was the system that we have and will have and continue to work with. Not a leftist liberal answer at all.

                                  I think the D's are hurt tremendously though, by things like I mention above....if nothing else, the (D) are HORRIBLE at marketing...and the (R) are much better at that. That isn't to say ones sides ideas are better than the others....those can be debated issue by issue.

                                  ....and another reason this hurts in cases like that mentioned above....let's say you are a moderate (R) who is pragmatic...you'll get called out from the right for being willing to work with a woman who is pro gender surgery for fellons. Just the labeling alone is political ammunition for these people. ....and that happens both sides all the time.
                                  The other thing one has to acknowledge is that lying is -- the straight slot screwdriver in Republicans' strategy toolbox. Anything a Republican says -- is very likely to be -- inaccurate (to put it nicely).

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Blueflame View Post

                                    The other thing one has to acknowledge is that lying is -- the straight slot screwdriver in Republicans' strategy toolbox. Anything a Republican says -- is very likely to be -- inaccurate (to put it nicely).
                                    Yea because only republicans lie and no one else!

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Blueflame View Post

                                      Please remind me what the Denver Broncos' colors are.
                                      Orange and white

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Blueflame View Post

                                        The other thing one has to acknowledge is that lying is -- the straight slot screwdriver in POLITICIANS' strategy toolbox. Anything a POLITICIAN says -- is very likely to be -- inaccurate (to put it nicely).
                                        I have changed your quote to reflect how I see it.

                                        Secondly...you all ought to try rooting for issues instead of people or parties...it's quite liberating.

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                                        • #21
                                          Originally posted by Agent Zero View Post
                                          Yea because only republicans lie and no one else!
                                          Which party was it that coined the term "alternative facts"?

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                                          • #22
                                            Originally posted by Agent Zero View Post

                                            Orange and white
                                            Seriously?

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                                            • #23
                                              Originally posted by Zerovoltz View Post
                                              I think the D's are hurt tremendously though, by things like I mention above....if nothing else, the (D) are HORRIBLE at marketing.
                                              The Democrats are indeed terrible at marketing. Most of that is due to their electoral pragmatism. Since Mondale got the shit beat out of him by Reagan those are the type of candidates they have trotted out for the most part. Pragmatism can be both an electoral and legislative tool.

                                              It has failed for the Democrats legislatively as well who have squandered the best bets they have had over the past few decades when attempting to meet John Q. Public and the opposite aisle in the middle.

                                              How much have they actually accomplished by doing that? Not a whole lot.

                                              The last election cycle marked the first time where the Democratic coalition had a majority of members self-identify as "liberal." Pragmatism hasn't worked and isn't going to work for them in the future if that portion keeps growing. It's just basic math.

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                                              • #24
                                                Originally posted by Zerovoltz View Post

                                                I have changed your quote to reflect how I see it.

                                                Secondly...you all ought to try rooting for issues instead of people or parties...it's quite liberating.
                                                While you are correct that lying is very common in politics of all types -- in recent years, Republicans have turned it into performance art. Any time a President tells 30,000+ documented lies in a 4-year term, that is -- an unusually high number.

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                                                • #25
                                                  Originally posted by Blueflame View Post

                                                  Which party was it that coined the term "alternative facts"?
                                                  You just said republicans lie and no one else. Like I mentioned before, you care only about your party and nothing else. You’re not a rationale person and can’t be taken seriously

                                                  Comment

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